Title: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: lems on January 22, 2002, 11:33:33 am
Okay - hot subject I know but we in the UK have been inundated with opinion polls over the past few days as to whether we consider the treatment of these prisoners to be inhumane. The general consensus amongst many of my colleagues here is that they don't consider it to be so - are we in the minority - what do others think?
Lemmie
Lemmie
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: andream on January 22, 2002, 01:06:06 pm
Dearest Lemmie! you are a mind reader. I know this is a hot topic, but the more I hear about the conditions, the lack of due process and the general way these prisoners are being held, the more I believe it violates the very ideals of the US justice system. This will not make me popular.
I'm fully aware that the events of Sept. 11th were horrible, I had direct family impact in the form of an Uncle who was in the Pentagon building. But I begin to wonder when two "wrongs" suddenly added up to a "right."
I Agree with the initial thoughts that the prisoners needed to be held in a very secure facility to prevent yet another attack meant to either free them, or to as some have speculated kill them so they die the martyrs deaths many of them had intended for themselves. I agree that extra precautions needed to be taken to protect the American public. But Cuba? Without hearings in many cases? Doesn't this somehow violate the very tennants we're trying to protect as a people? Somehow, it just doesn't feel right to me....
I'm fully aware that the events of Sept. 11th were horrible, I had direct family impact in the form of an Uncle who was in the Pentagon building. But I begin to wonder when two "wrongs" suddenly added up to a "right."
I Agree with the initial thoughts that the prisoners needed to be held in a very secure facility to prevent yet another attack meant to either free them, or to as some have speculated kill them so they die the martyrs deaths many of them had intended for themselves. I agree that extra precautions needed to be taken to protect the American public. But Cuba? Without hearings in many cases? Doesn't this somehow violate the very tennants we're trying to protect as a people? Somehow, it just doesn't feel right to me....
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: lems on January 22, 2002, 01:30:08 pm
I don't think your view is going to make you unpopular - it is a very emotive subject and I think we may well find people pretty evenly split on this one. Yes, the treatment is harsh but I'm trying to be absolutely honest when I say I have no problem with it. I don't happen to believe that they deserve decency and consideration. There was a picture in one of the Sunday newspapers (The Mail on Sunday I think) showing the prisoners bound and blindfolded and I felt nothing.
Harsh but true.
Lemmie
Harsh but true.
Lemmie
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: andream on January 22, 2002, 01:37:07 pm
No, you misunderstand. I don't feel bad for these individuals, but I feel bad that US due process and laws have seemingly been put aside under a flag of vengence. Punishment ? Absolutely these guys should be punished after a fair trial. Charged with Treason? for which the penalty is death? Probably. But why are they in Cuba? Why are they not part of the Federal penal system that has checks and balances to ensure that we do not accidentally sink to the level of monster we seek to guard? I dont get that part, and I probably never will.
Edited by andream on 22/01/02 12:38 PM.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: mlm668 on January 22, 2002, 02:24:13 pm
I admit, I haven't been keeping up with much of what is going on. But one thing in your post has caught my attention Andrea. I have to question how we can charge someone who is not a US citizen with treason against the US. Now the young man from CA (I think) I understand charging with treason, but the others?
Maybe I should start reading up on this so I can see what the media says is going on.
Michelle
Maybe I should start reading up on this so I can see what the media says is going on.
Michelle
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: blufire21 on January 22, 2002, 03:37:39 pm
Andrea,
The prisoner are being held in a military "prison" because they are considered millitary. What most people are suggesting and what I agree on is that these prisoners should be tried as POWs. This means that they should be tried using a court martial or the regular justice system. What the government and military is proposing is a Millitary Tribunal. I'm not sure what the difference is between that and a court martial, but I"m sure someone will define that.
I understand why we would want to hold them at a millitary base, but Cuba? I thought we didn't want anything to do with them. That doesn't make since at all to me. There are definatly some things that are amiss right now, but with the whole world watching I think the Gov. will do the right thing.... Well maybe.
Ellen in TX
The prisoner are being held in a military "prison" because they are considered millitary. What most people are suggesting and what I agree on is that these prisoners should be tried as POWs. This means that they should be tried using a court martial or the regular justice system. What the government and military is proposing is a Millitary Tribunal. I'm not sure what the difference is between that and a court martial, but I"m sure someone will define that.
I understand why we would want to hold them at a millitary base, but Cuba? I thought we didn't want anything to do with them. That doesn't make since at all to me. There are definatly some things that are amiss right now, but with the whole world watching I think the Gov. will do the right thing.... Well maybe.
Ellen in TX
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: juspeachy on January 22, 2002, 04:28:18 pm
Just so you know...
The US Navy has a base in Cuba and that's where the Taliban prisoners are being held. Conditions there are probably better than what they are used to in their own country.
JusPeachy
The US Navy has a base in Cuba and that's where the Taliban prisoners are being held. Conditions there are probably better than what they are used to in their own country.
JusPeachy
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: twhfan on January 22, 2002, 04:31:54 pm
I have to agree with Lems on this one. I, too, saw pictures of the prisioners bound and blindfolded and didn't feel any sympathy toward them. In fact, I thought, " If the situation was reversed, the Americans wouldn't even be alive right now. They probably would have died some horrific death and the Taliban would be celebrating".
I'm not normally a vengeful person, but I'm truly not concerned for the prisoners' welfare at this point. To be extremely frank, it bothers me that we are spending so much money feeding and housing these Taliban prisoners when there are so many poor Americans who are hungry and homeless. I don't mean that the prisoners shouldn't be fed and housed, just that it bothers me that we are spending so much money on them. And the Talibans treatment of women!! Yet another reason I'm unable to muster any sympathy or concern for the prisoners. As for all the folks who are so concerned for the prioners well-being, where were they while women were being so abused by the Taliban? Just my own personal opinion.
I can certainly understand Andrea's concern about justice for all and not stooping to their level. Clearly she's a kinder person than I. And in response to the comment about why the prisioners are in Cuba, perhaps they are safer there than in our penal system. If they were in an American prison, it's likely that American prisoners would harm them. Just a thought...
There, I feel better getting that out of my system.
I'm not normally a vengeful person, but I'm truly not concerned for the prisoners' welfare at this point. To be extremely frank, it bothers me that we are spending so much money feeding and housing these Taliban prisoners when there are so many poor Americans who are hungry and homeless. I don't mean that the prisoners shouldn't be fed and housed, just that it bothers me that we are spending so much money on them. And the Talibans treatment of women!! Yet another reason I'm unable to muster any sympathy or concern for the prisoners. As for all the folks who are so concerned for the prioners well-being, where were they while women were being so abused by the Taliban? Just my own personal opinion.
I can certainly understand Andrea's concern about justice for all and not stooping to their level. Clearly she's a kinder person than I. And in response to the comment about why the prisioners are in Cuba, perhaps they are safer there than in our penal system. If they were in an American prison, it's likely that American prisoners would harm them. Just a thought...
There, I feel better getting that out of my system.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: juspeachy on January 22, 2002, 04:50:16 pm
Here's a link to an article on CNN regarding the treatment of the prisoners. Personally, I believe they are receiving much better treatment than they would give any prisoners, if the tables were turned.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/21/xray.conditions/index.html
JusPeachy
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/21/xray.conditions/index.html
JusPeachy
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: spitfire78 on January 22, 2002, 05:01:58 pm
Like most of the posters here, this doesn't concern me too much. I do believe they should be considered prisoners of war and treated as such. I believe we should provide food, shelter, and any necessary medical attention and that is the end of our responsibility for their care. These are hard people accustomed to a harsh life, and my heart certainly doesn't bleed for them in the present circumstances. In my opinion, this is one of the things that has gotten the U.S. into its current situation - a bleeding heart. Before 9/11, people would not want to be too harsh with, for instance, someone in the country illegally. It's good to be known as the kind and benevolent one, but your first priority has to be protecting yourself.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: donnap99 on January 22, 2002, 05:33:53 pm
As far as I am concerned they are prisoners of war. The Red Cross is coming in to check up on their treatment. And if the Red Cross complains, I'm gonna have a cow. I'm sure that the square meals and medical treatment are a far cry from the standard of living from which they came.
It bothers me just a little that my conscious allows me to have no sympathy - but only a little.
Donna (Who just had a meeting this morning about our emergency preparedness)
DonnaP99
It bothers me just a little that my conscious allows me to have no sympathy - but only a little.
Donna (Who just had a meeting this morning about our emergency preparedness)
DonnaP99
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: disallusioned on January 22, 2002, 05:35:04 pm
I don't have any sympathy for them, and as for using Cuba, I can see a significant reason. Since they are being held under military laws and are to be tried by the military, approved by our government, then they should be held at a military facility. For safety and security, where would you put them? In the US where feelings could fire up and our own military be called upon to protect them by firing on US citizens? I don't think so! And what other country would agree to letting us put terrorists-and the possible threat that comes from housing these prisoners-inside their borders? So Cuba, being a US base, easily protected, one of the most secure posts farthest away from their home, seems to be the best option to them.
As for holding them without trial: it's not the first time that America has done this. Does it make it right? I really can't say. In this case I feel that it is right. Unless I've missed something: we are not stopping them from continuing to follow their religion with the exception of stopping them from killing or being killed, they are being fed as well if not better than they were at home, and are being given shelter that is equal or better than they had in the mountains. We're treating them well while they are waiting on the military tribunal to meet. That's definitely a better reason than the US had when we locked up all those of Asian ancestry after Pearl Harbor; taking all the students and families that were in the US, were US citizens, and had done nothing wrong and putting them in concentration camps within our borders. The US has a history of taking people that are viewed as a threat to national security and locking them up until it is proven they aren't a threat. And it is an item covered in the Constitution. Is it right? Hind-sight is 20/20. We'll know down the road whether the government's decision to hold these guys in Cuba without trial was the right thing to do or if there was a better way to handle it--all from the benefit of future knowledge. For now, I support their decision as the best one they could make with the information that I am aware that they have. I'll just continue to pray that the government be guided in its path and to pray for our military men and women who are protecting these very freedoms we're discussing here.
As for holding them without trial: it's not the first time that America has done this. Does it make it right? I really can't say. In this case I feel that it is right. Unless I've missed something: we are not stopping them from continuing to follow their religion with the exception of stopping them from killing or being killed, they are being fed as well if not better than they were at home, and are being given shelter that is equal or better than they had in the mountains. We're treating them well while they are waiting on the military tribunal to meet. That's definitely a better reason than the US had when we locked up all those of Asian ancestry after Pearl Harbor; taking all the students and families that were in the US, were US citizens, and had done nothing wrong and putting them in concentration camps within our borders. The US has a history of taking people that are viewed as a threat to national security and locking them up until it is proven they aren't a threat. And it is an item covered in the Constitution. Is it right? Hind-sight is 20/20. We'll know down the road whether the government's decision to hold these guys in Cuba without trial was the right thing to do or if there was a better way to handle it--all from the benefit of future knowledge. For now, I support their decision as the best one they could make with the information that I am aware that they have. I'll just continue to pray that the government be guided in its path and to pray for our military men and women who are protecting these very freedoms we're discussing here.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: superninjaadmin on January 22, 2002, 05:53:30 pm
Inhumane treatment by being kept in "cages" in Cuba? For God's sake, these people have been living in CAVES for how many months and years?
The reason they are being held in this place is for security purposes only. The military is trying to get as much information out of these guys that they can, to backtrack their histories. Most of these people will probably be let go after the military gets all the puzzle pieces fitted together.
These alleged terrorists being held in Cuba are under a major microscope right now. The whole world is watching. I don't want to be so naive to think that the military would even dare to treat them inhumanely. Most likely the contrary.
Anyway, we can all form our own opinions on this, but I would hope to give the military the benefit of the doubt that they are smart enough to have a process and plan designed here that is in the best interest of the WORLD in general. I have to put my faith in them that they are doing what is best in the best way possible with everyone's best interest in the forefront.
SNA
The reason they are being held in this place is for security purposes only. The military is trying to get as much information out of these guys that they can, to backtrack their histories. Most of these people will probably be let go after the military gets all the puzzle pieces fitted together.
These alleged terrorists being held in Cuba are under a major microscope right now. The whole world is watching. I don't want to be so naive to think that the military would even dare to treat them inhumanely. Most likely the contrary.
Anyway, we can all form our own opinions on this, but I would hope to give the military the benefit of the doubt that they are smart enough to have a process and plan designed here that is in the best interest of the WORLD in general. I have to put my faith in them that they are doing what is best in the best way possible with everyone's best interest in the forefront.
SNA
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: donnap99 on January 22, 2002, 06:00:02 pm
I wouldn't equate the prisoners being held in Cuba with the internment camps following Pearl Harbor at all! The differences? The internment camps:
1. Held US citizens
2. Held non-military people, including children, elderly, and handicapped
3. Removed asian-looking individuals simply based on their appeance - not based on their actions or even their associations
DonnaP99
1. Held US citizens
2. Held non-military people, including children, elderly, and handicapped
3. Removed asian-looking individuals simply based on their appeance - not based on their actions or even their associations
DonnaP99
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: countrigal on January 22, 2002, 06:04:37 pm
I agree Donna. The only thing they do have in common is that the government is using the same rationale for the holdings. National Security.
CountriGal
Deskdemon Editorial Board Member
CountriGal
Deskdemon Editorial Board Member
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: fireproof on January 22, 2002, 06:11:55 pm
Some of these people would just as soon bite your nose off as look at you. Really. They can't be taken to the mainland - what if they escaped? No one would be safe.
The fact is, we're suddenly dealing with a lot of very dangerous people without the time to properly prepare accomodations and a system for processing them. This will take time - they will be ok until they can be dealt with on an individual basis.
Incidently, they are being fed a "culturally appropriate" diet. No porkchops (and sufficient water and calories to stay healthy). They are even given an extra towel to use as a prayer rug! I think I would rather be a taliban prisoner of the US than an woman living in taliban controlled Afganistan.
The fact is, we're suddenly dealing with a lot of very dangerous people without the time to properly prepare accomodations and a system for processing them. This will take time - they will be ok until they can be dealt with on an individual basis.
Incidently, they are being fed a "culturally appropriate" diet. No porkchops (and sufficient water and calories to stay healthy). They are even given an extra towel to use as a prayer rug! I think I would rather be a taliban prisoner of the US than an woman living in taliban controlled Afganistan.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: andream on January 22, 2002, 06:12:30 pm
Look guys, I don't care if you hang them up by their heels somewhere, my point which is being lost in the emotionalism is that we're circumventing our own system and it puzzles me as to why these guys were handled any differently than any other criminals.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: chris68 on January 22, 2002, 06:18:44 pm
Andrea,
To answer your question the best of my knowledge is they are treating these people as prisoners of terrorism and not prisoners of war. I'm not sure of the technicalities of those issues, but I am sure the government is probably setting that standard and until then are keeping them in Cuba instead of the US. Granted a far cry from the conditions they had, wasn't it winter in Afganastan? Now they are in summer conditions?
Okay I'll stop there but I think that is the main confusion here that they are trying to figure out.
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
To answer your question the best of my knowledge is they are treating these people as prisoners of terrorism and not prisoners of war. I'm not sure of the technicalities of those issues, but I am sure the government is probably setting that standard and until then are keeping them in Cuba instead of the US. Granted a far cry from the conditions they had, wasn't it winter in Afganastan? Now they are in summer conditions?
Okay I'll stop there but I think that is the main confusion here that they are trying to figure out.
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: phoenix55 on January 22, 2002, 06:41:49 pm
Okay, maybe I'll be making an unpopular statement, but it's my understanding that if you're not a citizen of the United States, you are not automatically entitled to the rights of U.S. citizens, which would include due process.
I would bet Chris is right about the terrorism thing.
I would bet Chris is right about the terrorism thing.
Edited by phoenix55 on 22/01/02 05:43 PM.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: dedlered on January 22, 2002, 07:03:26 pm
The Taliban may not be US citizens but they are to be treated by the terms of the Geneva Convention. It is said that they are being treated well albeit not how they (the Taliban) would prefer to be treated.
I would expect that Chris's take on the terrorism aspect on this is correct as well.
Laura
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
I would expect that Chris's take on the terrorism aspect on this is correct as well.
Laura
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
Edited by dedlered on 22/01/02 06:03 PM.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: chris68 on January 22, 2002, 07:28:52 pm
Also on the news on the way back from lunch they stated a very important issue here is that we are dealing with some of the MOST DANGEROUS individuals on the planet, and they were btw the most wanted by the FBI (some of them anyway), so I think until they can determine how they will be handled they are just holding them in Cuba til' they can figure all the treaties and the like they have to consider. Besides I would rather they have the suspicious activities they have been reporting there instead of here, like someone said what would happen if one of them escaped here? Not that I would wish that on anyone anywhere else, but at least they are being fairly treated (best of my knowledge) and fed, and even allowed to worship. What more would they ask for under the current circumstances. We will have to see what our government decides to go here and I am sure appropriate action will be taken. Remember when they declared war on terrorism, well that took some time to prepare and I think that is what they (the government) is trying to do here in the best possible solution. It may not make everyone happy, but they do have lots of legal issues to mull over before they do decide.
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: andream on January 22, 2002, 07:37:14 pm
okay that's it, Im paying the big bucks and ditching my digital TV for cable, cause I'm not getting my CNN fix. Im missing nuances to the story. I can't believe it, terrorists are going to cost me £50. a month...grrrr!
Andrea, who needs her CNN
Andrea, who needs her CNN
Edited by andream on 22/01/02 06:37 PM.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: chris68 on January 22, 2002, 07:54:49 pm
Andrea,
Might I recommend Fox news. They claim to be fair and balanced news. As for CNN, I'm not so sure. The more I watch Fox news, it's better reporting, despite Rivera, and it actually does seem fair for the most part. Brit Hume and the like are wonderful to watch to get the NEWS IMHO.
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
Might I recommend Fox news. They claim to be fair and balanced news. As for CNN, I'm not so sure. The more I watch Fox news, it's better reporting, despite Rivera, and it actually does seem fair for the most part. Brit Hume and the like are wonderful to watch to get the NEWS IMHO.
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: andream on January 22, 2002, 08:04:13 pm
Well Chris, I'd like to try that but uhhh getting that In the Richmond (London)area is no mean feat. I've just been informed that the ONE cable company in my area has no Cable in my area and because my flat is located on the grounds of a Victorian Church, I have to do about a ream of paperwork anyway. :sigh:
Edited by andream on 22/01/02 07:05 PM.
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: donnap99 on January 22, 2002, 08:13:32 pm
How have you lived all this time without CNN?!? I'd be shriveled up in a corner mumbling "need news, need news, need news,..."
DonnaP99
DonnaP99
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: chris68 on January 22, 2002, 08:14:56 pm
Ahhh bummer on that one Andrea. DH is the one that got me tuned into Fox News instead of MSN and CNN. Actually we still do watch MSN but not as often. I keep forgetting sometimes that you are on the other side of the pond now. You'll just have to come here for the latest and greatest updates, correct?
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: blufire21 on January 22, 2002, 08:38:38 pm
Chris is right, they are being treated as prisoners of terrorism. And they are being given the rights they need under the Geniva act. Thanks to the USA Patriot Act (the terrorism law), normal constitutional rights have been forfited. That American Taliban guy... he lost his rights thanks to this act.
Personally I'm torn when it comes to this law. I'm glad that it protects us from such people, but it tramples over several of our rights. What's more frustrating for me is the fact that the majority of our congressmen and senators did not read the bill before they signed it.
"On October 12, the House voted 337 to 79, for a 175 -page bill that most of its members hadn't even had time to read." - The Village Voice, "Terrorizing the Bill of Rights" by Nat Hentoff. Posted Novermber 9th on www.villagevoice.com. I suggest you read the whole article because it's very interesting.
Ellen in TX
Personally I'm torn when it comes to this law. I'm glad that it protects us from such people, but it tramples over several of our rights. What's more frustrating for me is the fact that the majority of our congressmen and senators did not read the bill before they signed it.
"On October 12, the House voted 337 to 79, for a 175 -page bill that most of its members hadn't even had time to read." - The Village Voice, "Terrorizing the Bill of Rights" by Nat Hentoff. Posted Novermber 9th on www.villagevoice.com. I suggest you read the whole article because it's very interesting.
Ellen in TX
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: chris68 on January 22, 2002, 09:03:15 pm
Bluefire,
You bring up a very good point but do you really think they have time to read all the bills, even the President himself stated the one he signed last week he did not read nor did he intend to read it. He sighned it however, why, because he has staff that brief him on the highlights of those things. Do Congressmen and the like have the same staff, probably but to what extent I am not sure. So assuming their staff are doing the jobs they were hired to do, I wouldn't worry too much about Congress, etc. etc. not reading what they sign. Unfortunately it happens all the time.
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
You bring up a very good point but do you really think they have time to read all the bills, even the President himself stated the one he signed last week he did not read nor did he intend to read it. He sighned it however, why, because he has staff that brief him on the highlights of those things. Do Congressmen and the like have the same staff, probably but to what extent I am not sure. So assuming their staff are doing the jobs they were hired to do, I wouldn't worry too much about Congress, etc. etc. not reading what they sign. Unfortunately it happens all the time.
Chris68
Deskdemon Forum Board Staff
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: blufire21 on January 22, 2002, 10:13:10 pm
You're right again. Do they have time to read everything? Most cases no, but in the President's case, I have a problem. Not touching on this bill (because I printed out all 200+ pages and it reads greek), but if you've every REALLY looked at a bill you would see why the Pres. must read all bills and not have his staff brief him on it.
Congress writes special laws and allowances into a bill. For example, hypathetically, if I was to introduce a bill into Congress that lowers the blood alcohol to .0001, representatives have the ability to also add things unrelated into the bill. Senator A might write in a special allowance of 2 million dollars to set up special housing for families with of people undergoing chemo, while Senator B could write in an allowance for a 150 million dollar study on whether grass grows better in direct or indirect sunlight (I know very trivial, but it's for explanatory purposes only). While I'm all for the housing add-in, who needs to spend $150 million on grass? It's up to the President to see such things and veto the bill. It's then up to Congress to rewrite the bill w/o the issue that the President said no to.
Clinton got in to a big bind (think WAY before the other stuff) when he vetoed a welfare bill because the Representatives had writen in a huge perk for themselves that didn't add up. He told the press that he had no problem with the actual bill, but with the little extra like that perk that were snuck in.
As far as the Patriot Act, I would not have such a problem with it if the Republican leaders had not rewritten the bill after the House Judiciary Committe had written and submited the original bill to Congress. The people who rewrote the bill did it the night before and then pressured the other congressman by making them feel that they would be considered unpatriotic by withholding their vote. Senator Russ Fiengold gave an 11-page speache to President Bush that notes several amendment rights. Especially the 4th. One of my biggest concerns is the fact that law enforcement has a right now to go through All business records including Your medical records. All they have to say to the Judge to get a warrent to do this is that is has to do with a terrorism investigation. At the moment, the gov. is enlisting the help of several consumer information companies to do this. Check out his speach at http://feingold.senate.gov/releases/01/10/102501at.html.
Ok, now I'll shut up. I didn't mean to get into this as deeply, but once I started typing it just kind spewed out. I'm just a little PO'ed that the news didn't touch on this. Any other time, it would be a BIG issue.
Ellen in TX
Congress writes special laws and allowances into a bill. For example, hypathetically, if I was to introduce a bill into Congress that lowers the blood alcohol to .0001, representatives have the ability to also add things unrelated into the bill. Senator A might write in a special allowance of 2 million dollars to set up special housing for families with of people undergoing chemo, while Senator B could write in an allowance for a 150 million dollar study on whether grass grows better in direct or indirect sunlight (I know very trivial, but it's for explanatory purposes only). While I'm all for the housing add-in, who needs to spend $150 million on grass? It's up to the President to see such things and veto the bill. It's then up to Congress to rewrite the bill w/o the issue that the President said no to.
Clinton got in to a big bind (think WAY before the other stuff) when he vetoed a welfare bill because the Representatives had writen in a huge perk for themselves that didn't add up. He told the press that he had no problem with the actual bill, but with the little extra like that perk that were snuck in.
As far as the Patriot Act, I would not have such a problem with it if the Republican leaders had not rewritten the bill after the House Judiciary Committe had written and submited the original bill to Congress. The people who rewrote the bill did it the night before and then pressured the other congressman by making them feel that they would be considered unpatriotic by withholding their vote. Senator Russ Fiengold gave an 11-page speache to President Bush that notes several amendment rights. Especially the 4th. One of my biggest concerns is the fact that law enforcement has a right now to go through All business records including Your medical records. All they have to say to the Judge to get a warrent to do this is that is has to do with a terrorism investigation. At the moment, the gov. is enlisting the help of several consumer information companies to do this. Check out his speach at http://feingold.senate.gov/releases/01/10/102501at.html.
Ok, now I'll shut up. I didn't mean to get into this as deeply, but once I started typing it just kind spewed out. I'm just a little PO'ed that the news didn't touch on this. Any other time, it would be a BIG issue.
Ellen in TX
Title: Re: Taliban Prisoners in Cuba
Post by: whitesatin on January 24, 2002, 04:30:19 pm
Here's what the terrorist detainees at Guantanamo Bay ARE
receiving:
* Three meals a day that meet Muslim laws with regard to diet;
* Water;
* Medical Care;
* Clothing and shoes;
* Shelter [albeit, not air conditioned shelter];
* Showers;
* Soap and toilet articles;
* Towels and washcloths;
* The opportunity to worship;
* Foam sleeping pads;
* Blankets [in contemplation, one supposes, of the air conditioners];
* Correspondence materials.
"Let's see a show of hands of those who believe these thugs
had better living conditions in Afghanistan than they do in
Cuba. No one? Now, let's see a show of hands of those who
believe these thugs have better living conditions than most
Cubans. Oh! Look at that! Everyone."
- Rich Galen, "Mullings," 1/23/02
WhiteSatin
receiving:
* Three meals a day that meet Muslim laws with regard to diet;
* Water;
* Medical Care;
* Clothing and shoes;
* Shelter [albeit, not air conditioned shelter];
* Showers;
* Soap and toilet articles;
* Towels and washcloths;
* The opportunity to worship;
* Foam sleeping pads;
* Blankets [in contemplation, one supposes, of the air conditioners];
* Correspondence materials.
"Let's see a show of hands of those who believe these thugs
had better living conditions in Afghanistan than they do in
Cuba. No one? Now, let's see a show of hands of those who
believe these thugs have better living conditions than most
Cubans. Oh! Look at that! Everyone."
- Rich Galen, "Mullings," 1/23/02
WhiteSatin