PA and Secretary Community - Deskdemon.com

There is an article in the Daily Mail today about the capture of Khalid Sheik Mohammed asking if it is fair to torture this man to obtain information about Al Qaeda - so I ask the question - can torture be justified?

Sorry I've got my devil's advocate head on today and am feeling mean.

Lems

Torture is never justified.  It is contrary to respect for the person and human dignity.

Raindance

Raindance

Must admit I tend to agree with you - I feel quite uncomfortable about anyone being tortured regardless of what they have done or what information they hold.

Lems

I would have to say that coming from the US side of the pond and being that we are in war time it is sometimes necessary to do things that make us all uncomfortable.  As much as I would like to say no don't torture, sometimes it is necessary and the onlly means left to get some of these terrorists to talk.  Its the only way to get to them it seems.  On a normal day and time and in a normal situation I would definetley be behind you who have said no to torture but in war time I really would have to not agree.

We aren't at war (not yet anyway)!

How can you rely on any information received during torture?  

If we find ways to justify torture, how can we exert any influence over human rights abuses in other countries?

What methods would you use?  Would it be okay to torture someone to death? - As soon as you cross the line and use such tactics we are no better than animals.

I think the very fact that the question is even being asked shows how far our US officials are willing to drift from the very ideals which we, as Americans, have fought long and hard to uphold.  The whole thing sickens me and as an American I am seriously considering moving to a country where the rules don't change at the whim of the ruler.

To ask the world for assistance and backing, and then to make statements that basically say, well if you don't support us we're going ahead anyway and if you're not our friend you're our enemy only serve to point out the glaring deficiencies in both our leadership and our policy.

It's a sad day for America when anyone could make a statement that torture as long as we say it's okay, is in fact, okay.  It's not.  It never will be and we have as a country fought wars, initiated sanctions and embargoed nations over just such issues.   When it happens to us, and when the false economy brought on by the impending war begins to fade, we will have left only the remnants of our flag to wrap ourselves in and we will moan and wonder why we are no longer respected as a country or a people.

Bush wants to make war, we have no real choice in the matter.  The millions of people around the world and within the US who do NOT support war are being patently ignored, brushed aside as though their voices do not matter.  It's very Saddam like in my opinion.  And if we drop bombs on innocent people by default and if we cause even one more young US solider to die because of our country's boundless need to be "right",  to be the biggest bully on the block, then when the retaliation begins I will take my family and go somewhere neutral.

We used to be respected for our ethics as a country.  And now because of that respect we think we can violate any and all of the unwritten rules (and many of the written ones too) that created a superpower in the first place.  

I see the US star waning and I no longer care.  I used to be proud to be an American now I am simply sad about it.

I have marched for peace and been unheard, I have watched with horror the total avoidance of accountability for things like Camp X-Ray where there is no due process of law, something which so many of our young men fought to uphold in other battles in other places and in other times.  I have seen the US determine that they don't really care what the weapons inspector's reports say, and I have heard even on these forum boards the saber rattling so often associated with a truly bad position.  The longer one screams the longer one thinks that others are actually listening , when in fact the listeners have tuned you out and will never look at your comments the same way again.

Sept 11 was a heinous atrocity bin Laden should be punished but Saddam as much as we would like him to be, is NOT Bin Laden, he's an excuse to brush off a worrisome enemy.  You want my support? Go get bin laden, drag him through the streets, put him on display and then do what American's are SUPPOSED to do, put him on trial and let him pay for his crimes in whatever method the jury determines. But do not perpetrate hate.  If you do that as American’s then he has won.  And I for one; will not let him win over me.

I’m sure my view is unpopular and it makes me sad that to make my first post here I did not feel comfortable using a name even close to my own. But perhaps it is more of a lesson than a curse.  We who seek peace are often vilified.  We’re used to it.  So fire away, I have said what I have to say and will not respond to any more saber rattling.

Yes but what is our alternative here wait until another September 11th happens to make a war justified even if it's not on US soil the next time?  I think we have already made a strong case that Sadam and Bin Laden need to be dealt with and soon or we will have something much worse than Sept. 11th and I for one do not want to see that happen nor do I want to see another war, but what are our options?  Our hands are tied if we do nothing it will come back to Pres. Bush that he didn't do anything when he should have, if he does do something then those that don't want a war will be against it.  I see no other choice but to take care of these issues NOW!

It had been pointed out in the news that this last person that was captured was planning additional attacks on Pearl Harbor, would you want that?  Then would war have been justified?  I don't think that is the route to take, I think we need to take care of these two right NOW before something else happens.  Will something else happen even if we do go to war, who knows, but homeland security is now a top issue and I would hope that every American is keeping his/her eyes open for anything suspicious.  I for one choose NOT to live in fear and am glad that steps are being taken to make sure of the safety of us and our children that these evil people will be sought and hopefully this time for the last time!

Just my .02 cents and I'm off my soap box now.

I'm with you diamondlady.  I just think of the torture that thousands of people suffered as a result of Sept.11.  The pain and suffering they live with every single day from losing their loved ones, losing the illusion of safety in this country.  That man may well be the mastermind for that suffering.  And I can support "eye for an eye" with something as tragic as what happened that day.  Not to mention the "fringe" things happening with Al Quida--Daniel Pearl comes to mind, and just think of what happens in countries without free press, horrible things that we'll never know the details of.

Whatever it takes.

Alright, I was trying not to get into this, but I must.  Despite what is portrayed in the way of  freedoms and rights here in the US, the gov. has been doing stuff like this from the get-go.  There is stuff that goes on like this every day.  It only seems like it's just happening right now because we have so much access to news and media.  I'm not saying it's right, but it is reality.

Ellen in TX

I am German and my husband served in the Army for 20 years. The wife of my husband's cousin just left for the Gulf. She has four kids.

I sometimes wonder how she along with here fellow soldiers will return from her little jaunt to the Gulf. Will she suffer from some unknown syndrom that will not be recognized by the DOD? Will she be dead? If so, what about her husband and the kids? A soldier is not a pawn in a game of chess.

I think torture is not right under any circumstances. The government is currently lowering itself to the level of the dictatorships it claims to want to fight. All this started with the peculiar way Bush enter the White House in the first place. It is a strange coincidence that the problems with the polling machines occurred in Florida where Bush's brother is governor. Maybe, the UN should send observers to the US for the next elections.

Since then, the Bush administration has steadily eroded the freedom of expression. Stars who would like to speak out against Bush's politics are gagged or threatened with boycotts by the powers-that-be? That does not sound like the America whose values my husband originally put his life on the line for. Joe Citizen is fed handpicked news by tame news media who suggest that these things are a necessary means to an end. Which end I wonder?

And, whatever happened to due process? If the US are at war, as the Bush administration claims, whatever happened to treating in accordance to something called the "Geneva Convention"?

I think our former secretary of justice was right when she likened Bush to Hitler. Hitler used the arson attack on the Reichstag to bear down on the supposed enemies within Germany, and I think we all know where this ended. Bush might be on his way there without you realizing it.

Just think about, today they might torture Muhamed, tomorrow it might be your neighbor and next week it might be you.

I do not condone terrorism, but I do not believe that violence is the right way to combat terrorism. Sometimes it helps to think about the reasons for the  attacks in the first place and make some changes. How well do you think it sits with the sovereign members of the UN whose are disrespected by the American government? Dont get me wrong, I am grateful for the Americans freeing us from Hitler and turning us into a democracy, however, it does not mean that we go along with everything that is being put in front of us. If you give respect, give us respect as well.

Lillibelle

So Lillibeth - what would you have us do?  Sit on our hands until the next terrorist attacK?  Or do nothing until 1/2 million of us are dead due to some unknown biological attack?

As for the problem in the polls with George was elected, the problems came from South Florida where the population is mostly senior citizens (by the way I'm one too) who did not punch the card hard enough for the punch to go all the way through.  Then because the Democrats thought they should have won tried to have a lot of votes discounted - like the military.

And tell me - just because someone is a movie star, does that make him or her any more knowledgeable about what is going on in the world than I am.  They get the press because they have the money to buy it.  Just because you are a "star" does not mean you know more than any one else.  Besides, I don't want some alcoholic, crack-head telling me how I should think.

I do not support torture in any way shape or form.  If we stoop to this level we are no better than they are.  And I for one refuse to put myself on that level.

I feel that if we caught this one (Mohamud) then we will eventually catch the others.  So long are the press stays out of it and stop warning them when we are close on their trail.

It is time we stop boo-hooing about how much we hate Bush and what he is doing and start supporting our troops and their families.  I have a son in the Navy and don't want to go to war anymore than anyone else.  My son on the other hand has no choice and it's time we as Americans stand up for our military.

Pat, well said!

I spent four years in the U.S. Navy during peaceful times. I would gladly have gone to war to defend the United States and our Allies, had it been necessary.

My husband retired from the Navy after serving for 20 years. If things get really bad, he could still be called to serve.

My oldest son is in the U.S. Army. He's stateside still, but has been told they will deploy between April and June. I know, when he goes, that he will be fighting to keep us safe from a mad man.

I don't condone torture, either. The treatment that the United States gives its prisoners of war is far more humane than what our people would receive if they were captured by these terrorists.


JusPeachy

Well said patphi and juspeachy!  I'm with you folks.  Now that it looks like war is inevitible, we should be standing by our troops so that they don't hear while they are so far away from home and fighting for us that there are more protesters out there than folks that are behind em.  If you don't agree with the war fine, but by all means it's now time to support our troops and our President.

Edited by diamondlady on 10/03/03 07:20 PM.

Unbeknownst to you, Al Kaida hit us Germans, too. Germans died aboard the planes crashing into the WTC, and Germans died when Al Kaida bombed a synagogue which happens to be a popular tourist site on the Tunesian island of Djerba last April. Many other Germans including at least on toddler survived only with bad burns.

In the 1970s and 1980s Germany lived through terrorism which may not have been on the same scale as the WTC, but for those who have seen the outcome of those attacks first hand myself included, it gets you thinking. I almost lost my then-boyfriend during a bombing on the US airbase in Frankfurt and witnessed too many bomb scares to remember before and afterwards, and it is something I do not want to experience again.

Unfortunately, my odds for that just went up again, because I have a car with American license plates and I live in a small village in Germany at least 20 miles from the nearest base. I sometimes get up in the morning and wonder whether my car that is parked out in the open may not have a little bomb attached to it. Not a pleasant thought.

I firmly believe Bush and Rumsfeld just fan the flames of terrorism with their aggressive politics. May I also remind you that it were the US who supported SAddam Hussein in his war against Iran back in the 1980s? I venture to say that he also received plenty of military support and supplies that eventually helped him build all the weapons he supposedly still has. May i also bring to your attention that the CIA and the then-US government supported the Taliban'as fighting against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. I think these two examples show that the intelligence efforts of the recent Republican administrations were not that great and rather short-sighted. I simply wish that a more measured and calm approach should be taken, because aggression will only breed more aggression.

I believe 9/11 has shown clearly what these terrorists are capable of and that they should be dealt with carefully. Harsh rhetoric and aggression may only lead to something that neither you or me could even begin to imagine right now.

If the US were really as morally superior to the terrorists as they claim to be, why should the government lower itself to the same level as these so-called evil states and resort to torture to extract an answer from this terrorist? How about taking the moral high road and granting this guy a fair trial? Sentence him to life in prison and throw away the key. Use good military intelligence and police work to fully investigate 9/11 and hunt down every last suspect, but treat them fairly - even though it may be difficult in light of the loss of so many innocent lives.

I am greatly saddened by the way the current administration is acting right now. Their actions seem to be short-sighted and with utter disregard for those who dare to voice a different opinion, whether they are other sovereign states, independently thinking cititzens or organizations like the UN or churches. Certainly, not all actors, singers or others within the US may have the right lifestyle, but they do have an opinion and in the world`s greatest democracy (Isn't that what the US claim to be?) it should be possible to voice one's opinion without fear of retributions. If you cannot do that anymore, may be the US are not as democratic a society as they want everyone to believe.

Lillibelle

Well said lillibelle - I am wholeheartedly of the same opinion.  The US and the UK both must be careful of their actions lest they be labelled the aggressor by doing the same thing as the enemy.  Fairness for all is imperative for those who consider themselves better than ordinary people.

Just a reminder guys, to keep tempers under control.  This is a sensitive subject and shouldbe discussed both as an outlet and as a way of communicating opposing views to others in a sane and sensible manner.  Remember that this is a global forum and there are many viewpoints in the world and all of them have a right to be heard.

Let's keep comments on the issue at hand or the issue contained within any given post and not directed to individuals.

just a gentle word in the way of a reminder as what is sure to be a very sensitive topic heats up.


The Editor

I'm not sure I understand, lillie, what you're speaking about when you refer to stars in the US being gagged from voicing their opinions.  I hear opinions loud and clear, from everyone, stars down to the local people in my town.  The newspaper is filled with letters to the editor every day on both sides of the issue of war.  Citizens have every right to voice their opinions here, and they do--from the letters I mention, to the guys that stand on the street corner holding signs to passing traffic, to radio and TV commentators.

That is the reason I am proud to be American.  I can voice my opinion over the internet, or on the street.  I can support my president or I can curse him.  Every day, as I drive to work listening to public (uncensored) radio, I think about how lucky I am to live here.  I don't always agree with politics or foreign policy, I don't like the way things are run, but I can speak up about it.  I am grateful to all soldiers and sailors, past and present, who fought for these basic freedoms.

Waving my flag...and pledging allegiance...off my soapbox now.

Edited by lauragfoss on 12/03/03 07:50 PM.

I have been reading this thread with interest and think it is good to hear different views, at the moment I haven't decided where I stand on the issue of war but coming from a military family I know that I would be fully supportive of our troops should they be sent into action.

I lived in Germany at the time of the Terrorist attacks Lillibelle refers to and remember having armed escorts on our school buses and bomb disposal experts being regular visitors to our school and housing estates.  Not a pleasant way to have to live.

I have extremely strong views about torture - in my opinion there is never just cause for it.  As civilised societies we should rise above this and treat our prisoners of war as human beings.  A member of my family has been personally affected by this during active service and the effects are severe and everlasting.

Caroline