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Author Topic: Stop the War Coalition  (Read 22257 times)
peana
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« on: February 12, 2003, 02:48:47 pm »

Anyone going to join the anti-war protests this weekend?

I've been thinking about it all week and still can't decide - I don't rule out the possibility of a war completely, but I think everything is happening too fast and undemocratically.  Some of the 'evidence' to support a war is pretty dubious and very open to interpretation - I'm worried that by acting in haste the US and UK may be labelled 'rogue states' themselves and simply exaccerbate things.  On the other hand, the UN has failed to deal strongly with Iraq for years - how long will it take to get a resolution?

I can see merit in some of the arguments for and some against, although I am veering towards the anti.  Anyone else in a quandary?

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jadegrniiz
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2003, 03:14:39 pm »

I'm not very supportive of the war, and while there are some days I feel like I need to be singing Kum By Yah, wearing tie dye and driving a Volkswagon..... I just don't have the time, and ability to participate in such a thing.

I heard on the news yesterday that 1 in 3 Europeans think that the Country most likely to destroy World Peace is the US - NOT Iraq. Not Afghanastan. Not North Korea. But the Good Ole US of A. It was a touching statistic for me.

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radaro
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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2003, 04:40:01 pm »

I'm not sure if I support the war or not but something has to be done about the insane madman know as Saddam Hussein.  What he is doing to his own people is unconscionable!

Makes me wonder if Hitler came to power now would the world want to go to war against him?  Or would they still feel that the US was a threat to world peace?

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bethalize
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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2003, 06:15:46 pm »

If I'm not listening properly when someone mentions "that madman" in relation to Gulf War II, it takes me a minute to work out which one they are referring to.

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akara
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2003, 10:00:17 am »

I totally agree with you, peana.  It's the sequence of events that are leading to war that I am opposed to - and I find Bush a very disturbing man.  However, what also disturbs me is the fact that our UK leader is joining him.  The UK and US are going to war with Iraq - no question.  And I think the repercussions for that will be far-reaching.

More immediately, I'm worried about the fact that half the British Army appear to have stationed itself around Heathrow airport, particularly since I'm getting on a plane to Thailand from Heathrow on Saturday.  The government tell us they are acting on a real and serious threat 'on the scale of 9/11'.  Just exactly what is this threat?  Shouldn't we be told?  Or is it so serious they fear mass panic if they tell us?

Should I really be thinking about getting all my affairs in order before I leave for my holiday - just in case I get blown out of the sky??

Akara

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donnap99
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2003, 03:03:57 pm »

In reply to:

Makes me wonder if Hitler came to power now would the world want to go to war against him? Or would they still feel that the US was a threat to world peace?




I couldn't have said it better myself!  Hasn't the world stood by too much already in recent history while watching fellow mankind fall vicitm to their own domestic terrorists?  And I don't mean just the US should jump in - the direct neighboring countries should - any nation with a sense of what is right and wrong should.  We should all be sickened by the genocide (Cambodia, Bosnia, Rwanda) and oppression (what the Taliban did to Afghan women) that has been allowed to continue in our life times.

That's my vent for today.  Getting off my soapbox now...

DonnaP99

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chevygirl55
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2003, 06:06:21 pm »

I totally agree with Donna.  The world has stood by too long.  Saddam has been given chance after chance and all he does is hide and lie and continue his reign as he wants to do.  

For those countries who are unwilling to support the US and the UK in this, I say please do not come running to us for help when these monsters attack your homeland with chemical weapons or fly planes into your buildings.

I don't like war.  But "turning the other cheek" does not mean we allow others to take advantage of us.  We have to stick up for ourselves.  If that means I have to pay more for gasoline, then so be it.  If making sacrifices in my personal life is what it takes to keep our freedoms and our sense of safety and well-being, then I am willing to sacrifice.  

Talk to the Holocaust survivors if you think that Hitler was just a little overzealous.  I don't want to see this happen in our country or anywhere else again.  Would the world turn a tolerant eye toward this man if this threat was happening now and give him chance after chance to stop doing what he was doing?  We have to take a stand.

chevygirl55

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andream
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2003, 07:06:11 pm »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757143.stm

A couple of hours ago, a man was stopped at Gatwick Airport with what turned out to be a live grenade.

I suppose that things of this nature will continue now and even after something breaks in relation to whether or not there will be a war.



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bethalize
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2003, 08:47:50 pm »

"support the US and the UK"? That would be more accurate as "support the US and Tony Blair".

This whole charade is positively Orwellian in the way Dubya and his My Lttle Tony (comes with set of Care Blairs) are so intent on turning our focus outwards.

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JessW
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2003, 11:11:03 am »

First of all I would like to apologies in advance in case I offend anyone!.
but

Chevygirl

Wake up and smell the roses, please.  A small proportion of those holocaust victims families went on to set up the state of Israel - and have since been land snatching and murdering palestinians right, left and centre and all in the public gaze! And who is going to have the guts to call that particular kettle black?  Nobody, because of the atrocities that the silent majority of Jews who really did get persecuted but still live  (or are buried) all over Europe.

If Saddam is as bad as all that and if he has to go then a) surely the Iraqi people would have done something about it and b) all the politicians want out of this is money, revenue, control and backhanders.

At least that is how I see it.  I apologies again if I have offended anyone but I just had to get my 2c worth in.

Jess

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patphi
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2003, 02:25:44 pm »

Have we not learned anything from history!

There we those (including America) who thought Hitler was not so bad too.  And look what happened.

I hate to think of going to war but what is the alternative!  Do we let the terrorists take over the world so that the rest of us live our lives in fear?

Or perhaps we should let Suddam and his ilk kill off 1/2 million of us before we decide to do something.  There are those who would not believe even this as proof of his evilness.

Pat in Orlando

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JessW
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2003, 02:53:41 pm »

two wrongs don't make a right!  The cycle of hate has to stop somewhere. but who's going to be brave enough to say "enough"?  Looks like everyone is "burying Caesar not praising him".

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JessW
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2003, 02:55:02 pm »

and before anyone says/writes it I am not a pacifist - I just don't know how to drive an ambulance!

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radaro
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2003, 03:51:47 pm »

Regarding remarks made about Israelis murdering Palestinians:

1.  Israel is a democracy - in fact the ONLY democracy in the Middle East.  This means that what you see in the news is Israel, warts and all.  None of the other Arab countries are democracies, they are dicatatorships and monarchies which means their media is controlled. You do not see when they murder their own citizens - people who do anything in opposition of their governments.  You also don't see what they do to the Jewish population in their countries.  Do you know the plight of Syrian Jews?  Do you know the plight of Iranian or Iraqi Jews?   Far worse than what happens in Israel but you will never see it in the press.

2.  Do you realize that Israel is surrounded by 22 hostile neighbours?  Yes, a country about the size of Rhode Island is surrounded by 22 other countries that want to blow it off the map.

3.  Israel would like to make peace with its Palestinian neighbours.  They did it with Egypt and they have some sort of agreement with Jordan.  Don't be fooled - Hamas and the PLO don't want peace with Israel, they want to "drown every last Jew in the Medditeranian Sea".

4.  Why haven't any of the arab countries come forward and offered any help (i.e. places to settle, financial aid and the like) to the Palestinians?  The only help they have provided is to continually arm the Palestinians.  Most arab nations do not want to help the Palestinians, they prefer to use them as pawns.

5.  Do you know that in Israel there are many social service organizations that help the Palestinians?  Everything from day care to medical care.

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radaro
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2003, 04:19:08 pm »

This one bears repeating in response to the comparison of Israelis to Nazis.

May. 6, 2002
US must stand with Israel
By WILLIAM BENNETT


The first piece I ever published in the popular press was a 1977 "My Turn" column in Newsweek. There I lamented the fact that children were no longer identifying with heroes. I pointed out that to find a hero, to see heroism, one had to look no farther than Yonatan Netanyahu who died at Entebbe the previous year. Netanyahu was a hero, to be sure - but so, too, is the State of Israel a hero to many of us, even if so many others still think it appropriate to condemn, criticize, and investigate it.

One of the premier political philosophers of our age said that Winston Churchill taught us to "see things as they are, and
this means above all in seeing their greatness and their  misery, their excellence and their vileness." When one looks at Israel and the Middle East, no task can be more
important and, through the lens of moral clarity, no task can be more easily accomplished.

It did not take a great deal to see things as they really were on September 11 nor on the days and weeks that followed.
On September 11, Israelis lowered their flags to half staff in empathy with the US. By contrast, Palestinians in the West Bank were cheering in the streets.

On September 11, we in the United States were forced to stare into the face, and feel the hand, of evil - our very existence demanded that we fight back, not only to punish the wrong done to us, not only to protect our citizens
and institutions, but to vindicate our democratic virtues.

Just after the slaughter that took place on September 11, many Israelis said, "We are all Americans now." The truth is, after September 11, we all became Israelis. Israel has been fighting a war against terrorism since the day it was founded, and this has been a war for the state's survival. It is not difficult to see that those who want to do Israel in - from Iran and Iraq to Hamas and the PLO - want to do the US in as
well. And, as is true in the case of Israel, our war on terrorism became, had to become, a war for our survival. Israel's war is our war, just as Israel's cause is our cause.

I AM A Catholic, and many have speculated that Christian interpretations of the Torah are the reason many Christians support Israel. There may be something to that. But that is not my reason for standing with Israel, nor is it the reason the US does and should stand with Israel.

We stand with Israel because Israel is a beacon of freedom and hope - to the world, generally, and, in a more important sense, to the Middle East. In its very Declaration of Independence, Israel proclaimed that it would "ensure
complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race, or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education, and culture; it will safeguard the holy places of all religions." Israel has kept faith with the promise of its founding, a founding more similar to America's than perhaps any other nation's.

Israel is the only country in the region that permits citizens of all faiths to worship freely and openly. We need to remember that 20 percent of Israeli citizens are not Jewish. While Jews are not permitted to live in many Arab countries, Arabs are granted full citizenship and have the right to vote in Israel. (Arabs not only comprise a faction within the Knesset, but routinely side with Israel's enemies.) Arabs living in Israel
have more rights and are freer than most Arabs living in Arab countries.  Israel, in short, has shown the way in the Middle East, it has shown - the way for freedom, for democracy, and for education.

And Israel has done all this while under continued pressure aimed at undermining and extinguishing its very existence. It
was invaded by five armies upon its founding and has been threatened with annihilation ever since. Milan Kundera once wrote that a small nation is "one whose very existence may be put into question at any moment; a small nation can disappear, and knows it." Israel is a small nation.

It should not have been surprising or worthy of condemnation that just after Yasser Arafat attempted to smuggle 50 tons of weapons into his Palestinian Authority, and just as his Fatah-affiliated Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades were perfecting their human-bomb-making capabilities, Israel finally said,
"Enough!"

Israel then went into the territories to root out terrorists, to do what Arafat over the years had refused to do. That mission
was of a piece with what the US did in Afghanistan in rooting out the Taliban and al-Qaida. The pressure on Israel to cease that operation amounted to perhaps the greatest blurring of our moral clarity since September 11. That pressure was imposed on Israel in order to appease nations like Saudi
Arabia, a repressive dictatorship that owes the US a great many explanations, that deserves from the US nothing.

Nor, by contrast, was it surprising that the first sentences uttered by Arafat upon his release from confinement were  libels against Israel as a "terrorist, Nazi, and racist" regime. This is what he always said. Lies pervade his speech, and those lies have trickled down and out into the common criticisms of Israel heard elsewhere. One of them is that the Jewish settlements in the disputed territories are the greatest obstacle to peace in the Middle East. When I hear this, I am reminded of a lie from another context and another time: that blacks living as minorities in all-white neighborhoods in the American South were the cause of racial strife. They weren't - racists were the cause of racial strife.

There is no reason Jews should not be able to live in the West Bank unless there is a reason Arabs should not be able to live in Tel Aviv - which is to say, there is no reason at all. The freedoms to travel and live are fundamental. To claim that certain lands should be free of Jews is to claim that the Third Reich had a moral point.

While many may prefer to forget their ugly history, I think it critical to remember it, for nowhere more than in the Middle  East is history a prelude. Because of their animus against Jews, many leaders of the Palestinian cause have long supported our enemies. The grand mufti of Jerusalem allied himself with Adolf Hitler during World War II. Yasser Arafat
has repeatedly targeted and killed Americans.

Arafat was very closely aligned with the Soviet Union and other enemies of ours throughout the Cold War. In 1991, during the Gulf War, Arafat aligned himself with Saddam Hussein, whom he praised as "the defender of the Arab
nation, of Muslims, and of free men everywhere."  Israel, by contrast, has always been on the side of the US, both as a strategic and as a moral ally.

And the civilized world will never be able to pay its debt to Israel for bombing Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981.

TODAY, MORE than ever, we cannot afford to criticize
Israel for its war against terrorism, as we ignominiously did in that episode in 1981. Now more than ever we need to see things for their "excellence and for their vileness."

Those searching for heroes of democracy need look no farther than Israel, a country that has done more, for more people, with fewer resources and under greater threat, than almost any other. We must never ignore the fact that if Israel loses its war against terrorism, it will lose its existence. To
vindicate our own virtues and cherished beliefs, we
should stand foursquare with Israel and apply pressure to the dictatorships in its neighborhood, not the other way around.

Moral clarity demands standing with Israel in its still unfinished war against terrorism, in its still unfinished work for
survival. It is for these reasons and more, far more, that I count myself among the millions of Americans who see America's fate and Israel's fate as one.

William J. Bennett is a former secretary of education
and the author, most recently, of Why We Fight: Moral Clarity and the War on Terrorism. This op-ed is drawn from Chapter 4, "The Case of Israel."

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