Signatures

[venim102]

I know, it is the Fourth of July and I am thinking about work, but need to know the answer before I return on Tuesday.   I took home my bosses signature so I can practice signing his name.  He asked me to sign 150 letters for him next week.  My question is, do I try to duplicate his signature or come up with my own for his name?  We are sending out letters introducing a new program to our suppliers.  He signed the ones going to the top 30 because they met with us last month and it is sort of a thank you for attending letter.  The remainder, I was asked to sign for him.

Thanks for your help and Happy Fourth to all!
venim102

[chris68]

As my bossie put it as long as he knows you are signing for him and it's no big surprise (I've done it before, badly but have done it), I see no problem with signing as closely as you can to your bossies signature.

Chris68
Peer Moderator

[Jackie G]

I'm sorry but that's forgery and you can't and shouldn't do it - with or without your boss's permission.

The fact that you're able to sign his name well is another matter - I can do things like that too!

You'd be better and on the legal side of everything if you simply sign your own name and put pp against his name which is presumably in the signature block.

Other alternative, get your boss's signature scanned into your PC and then you can add it electronically to letters when he's not around to sign them.

BUT DON'T FORGE HIS SIGNATURE - THESE THINGS HAVE A NASTY HABIT OF COMING BACK TO HAUNT YOU.  

Jackie
www.iqps.org
Peer Moderator

[chris68]

Don't worry Jackie bossie got a big lecture from me and I think I made him change his ways on doing things and I only had to do that once as it was an emergency item that needed signing and he wasn't there to do it, so gave approval to do so.  When he returned I lectured him about it and he now signs for his boss who is the President with his name and a "for" after it so they know he's signing for the President of our company.  I have yet to have to do that again.

Chris68
Peer Moderator

[bethanial]

Bossie and I have come up with a good solution to this little pickle of a question -- we had a signature stamp made ($20-25 at most office supply places).  Bossie is the only one authorized to sign checks, etc, and we hade the stamp made up when he was going to be out of town for awhile.  He didn't like the thought of, yet again, leaving blank signed checks lying around.  And it also works well for these kind of applications as well.  And of course, the stamp stays in a secure location, and only bossie knows where it's kept.

Peer Moderator

Edited by bethanial on 07/07/03 02:24 PM.

[chris68]

Sounds like a good solution bethaniel, solves all kinds of problems.  We used to do that in the CPA firm I worked for when signing opinion letters in financial reports.  Worked wonders during tax season and again only one person in the office had access to it while partners were away, otherwise, locked and secured.

I agree this is a sticky situation, however, would have to agree that forgery of your bosses or anyone elses signature without knowledge is against the law.

Chris68
Peer Moderator

[andream]

Yup have to agree with the Mods on this one, signing bossies name without the notation that it's been signed by someone else can be construed as forgery.  

Yes, I know we do it all the time, yes I KNOW it's probably for something innocent, however, it's really okay to tell the boss "I'm not comfortable signing your name without the standard notation which indicates I've done so. "

There are other ways of getting this done, create a stamp and then make sure you keep that under lock and key, (yes I know yet another thing to keep track of!)

Create a pseudo-name,,, for instance whom do you think answers mail for Betty Crocker? Her fictious secretary... Helen something or other.  Of course Helen is 12 people in a back room in Poughkeepsie,, however what's important is that there is company understtanding that mail addressed to the pseudo-person is part of the group mail process.

If your boss is insistant on having letters signed, and won't allow the pp designation, then I say sit him down with a good sharpie pen, a nice cuppa coffee and the chance to close his office door with some soothing music on while he completes this task.

Andrea

[countrigal]

I would go with the signature being your own with "for" before Bossie's typed name and title.  This is the appropriate way to sign for someone who is not availalbe to sign in person.  And since this is not something that needs to be over his personal signature, then I think it would be an acceptable option.  The stamp and/or electronic signature are things to look into for future problems such as this one, but neither are easy enough to do on short notice for this project.

CountriGal
Peer Moderator

[lioness]

If the letters you're sending were making promises or discussing money, then I'd be more concerned. But for heaven's sake, it's not as serious as all that. Forgery is usually what people do for their own gain, such as checks, wills, letters of  introduction or reference, credit applications, etc. (and before you say anything, yes I know the dictionary definition of the word). However, if your boss has previously given you his permission to sign these letters and you're not gaining anything from it, I don't think you need to worry about going to jail. Is he later going to say your company is not introducing a new program to your suppliers or that the suppliers should not have received the letter? If you're really that concerned about it, have him put in writing that he gives permission for you to sign CERTAIN letters on his behalf with or without the pp. If you're still uncomfortable, then sign his name with your initials after it. The letter shouldn't be signed with your name if it's not from you.

Lioness, Queen of the Jungle

[Jackie G]

NO Lioness, I'm sorry I really disagree.  You (ie One) should never sign someone else's name, whether it's a letter, document etc not for gain or for gain.

The accepted forms are:

yours sincerely

Jackie Grant  - handwritten signature and then either 'pp' by his typed name OR

Joe Bloggs
Managing Director

(Dictated and signed in his absence) - below the sig block.

I have seen unsigned letters be sent out!

OR

Scan in an electronic signature of the person in question

OR

use a stamp

it is NOT acceptable to ask someone to sign (ie forge) someone else's name - EVER!  

Jackie
www.iqps.org
Peer Moderator

[countrigal]

I think part of it is understanding...  (Think "for" = "on behalf of")  Any time anyone (including Bossie) asks me to sign for them, I don't think of me signing their name.  I see them having asked me to sign on their behalf, and therefore it goes like this:

[signed] CountriGal  -for-
[typed] Bossie Name
          Title

If it is something that absolutely must go over bossie's own signature, then he either signs it or we use a stamp of his signature, or if it's electronic we can use the electronic signature, but never does signing "for" someone mean forging their signature.  If it did, then we wouldn't have the practice of signing 'for' or 'pp' with the signee's signature over the Name and Title of someone else... we'd all just sign someone elses name to letters/reports when they aren't there.

Remember, by signing with your signature and the 'for' or 'pp', it allows Bossie and anyone else to know who actually signed it and who to go to with questions (say, who all did it get sent to, when did it go out, what's it involving, etc) and lets them also know that yes, Bossie wasn't there on that date but the signee was requested to sign on his/her behalf.  It's a paper trail that could be used for years.  Say someone comes in months from now asking about this letter sent regarding a new process being implemented or offered... Bossie doesn't remember signing the letter, doesn't recognize the contents, but there is his signature.  Now he's wondering how that happened.  If it is signed 'for', then he'll know who to go to for a reminder/refresher.

CountriGal
Peer Moderator

[lioness]

Well, Jackie, we agree to disagree. My boss travels far too much for either one of us to be worried about his signature. I have it scanned into my computer and we use that when we can. If it's anything that comes from our legal department, it waits until he returns. But the nature of our business sometimes requires a real ink (not stamped) signature, not one with a "pp", and that's what we do. And there's certainly no need for you to apologize for disagreeing with me. You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. However, you may apologize for YELLING AT ME. Accepted.

Lioness, Queen of the Jungle

[andream]

Let me tell you a little story about an Admin type who got so good at signing her boss' name for him that she did it for nearly everything.  There were no processes in place and it was always for very innocent things, like our friend Lioness, she let the legal stuff wait and just signed for him the things that didn't matter.

A year or two went by and the formerly wonderful bossie developed a serious drinking problem, which had an impact on his job, and lots of other things.

The day the police arrived at Sue's desk with a warrant for HER arrest she was beside herself with confusion , there had been several secret meetings going on, she had known something was up,,, but what she had no way of knowing was that the company accounts has been seriously compromised and the funds her employer responsible for had been tapped for nbearly thirty grand.  Now our Admin friend had just bought a new car, and apparently when Bossie was questioned about his accounts, he feigned innocence, citing his long years of service to the company and pointed the finger at... you guessed it,, that Admin who had been signing his name for him for all kinds of innocent things.  It took her weeks to get things sorted out and though eventually she was vinidicated, there was a horrible day when she had to go into the office where everyone had called her a theif, and clean out her desk.

Needless to say she was eventually offered her job back, (she passed on it ) and when she got done suing everyone involved, she had enough money to live on without working.... Good thing too cause no one cared that she was innocent in the end, they cared that she had been involved at all, and she was nearly at the end of her rope job hunting, and being furious and trying to deal with the aftermath of an accusation when the settlement came in.

One of the things we try to do here is point out "best practices" and best practice says,,,, don't sign for bossie unless you've used a standard indicator.  Not for the lunch bill, not the receipt for his wife's birthday present, not for anything,, because one never knows when an innocent act can have far from innocent repercussions.

If you think it can't happen to you, would never be something you could be exposed to,, think again.   It could happen to any of us, it's just better to err on the side of being professional in some cases than to err on the side of "making life easier for Bossie" there are other ways of making things easy for him/her than compromising either your personal ethics or the ethics of the profession.

Nuff said.

Andrea

[Jackie G]

Lioness

I have PMd you on this one.

I think Andrea's posting at 7 pm UK time this evening should now draw a line under this heated discussion.  Venim, did you know what you were starting here!  (Maybe you should show your boss!!!) - joking!

Jackie
www.iqps.org
Peer Moderator

[donnap99]

I'll admit - I've never heard of the "pp" thing.  What does the pp stand for?  (I've just never signed... easy.)

DonnaP99