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lems
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« on: January 22, 2002, 11:33:33 am » |
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Okay - hot subject I know but we in the UK have been inundated with opinion polls over the past few days as to whether we consider the treatment of these prisoners to be inhumane. The general consensus amongst many of my colleagues here is that they don't consider it to be so - are we in the minority - what do others think?
Lemmie
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andream
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2002, 01:06:06 pm » |
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Dearest Lemmie! you are a mind reader. I know this is a hot topic, but the more I hear about the conditions, the lack of due process and the general way these prisoners are being held, the more I believe it violates the very ideals of the US justice system. This will not make me popular.
I'm fully aware that the events of Sept. 11th were horrible, I had direct family impact in the form of an Uncle who was in the Pentagon building. But I begin to wonder when two "wrongs" suddenly added up to a "right."
I Agree with the initial thoughts that the prisoners needed to be held in a very secure facility to prevent yet another attack meant to either free them, or to as some have speculated kill them so they die the martyrs deaths many of them had intended for themselves. I agree that extra precautions needed to be taken to protect the American public. But Cuba? Without hearings in many cases? Doesn't this somehow violate the very tennants we're trying to protect as a people? Somehow, it just doesn't feel right to me....
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lems
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2002, 01:30:08 pm » |
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I don't think your view is going to make you unpopular - it is a very emotive subject and I think we may well find people pretty evenly split on this one. Yes, the treatment is harsh but I'm trying to be absolutely honest when I say I have no problem with it. I don't happen to believe that they deserve decency and consideration. There was a picture in one of the Sunday newspapers (The Mail on Sunday I think) showing the prisoners bound and blindfolded and I felt nothing.
Harsh but true.
Lemmie
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andream
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2002, 01:37:07 pm » |
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No, you misunderstand. I don't feel bad for these individuals, but I feel bad that US due process and laws have seemingly been put aside under a flag of vengence. Punishment ? Absolutely these guys should be punished after a fair trial. Charged with Treason? for which the penalty is death? Probably. But why are they in Cuba? Why are they not part of the Federal penal system that has checks and balances to ensure that we do not accidentally sink to the level of monster we seek to guard? I dont get that part, and I probably never will. Edited by andream on 22/01/02 12:38 PM. |
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mlm668
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2002, 02:24:13 pm » |
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I admit, I haven't been keeping up with much of what is going on. But one thing in your post has caught my attention Andrea. I have to question how we can charge someone who is not a US citizen with treason against the US. Now the young man from CA (I think) I understand charging with treason, but the others? Maybe I should start reading up on this so I can see what the media says is going on. Michelle  |
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blufire21
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2002, 03:37:39 pm » |
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Andrea,
The prisoner are being held in a military "prison" because they are considered millitary. What most people are suggesting and what I agree on is that these prisoners should be tried as POWs. This means that they should be tried using a court martial or the regular justice system. What the government and military is proposing is a Millitary Tribunal. I'm not sure what the difference is between that and a court martial, but I"m sure someone will define that.
I understand why we would want to hold them at a millitary base, but Cuba? I thought we didn't want anything to do with them. That doesn't make since at all to me. There are definatly some things that are amiss right now, but with the whole world watching I think the Gov. will do the right thing.... Well maybe.
Ellen in TX
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juspeachy
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2002, 04:28:18 pm » |
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Just so you know... The US Navy has a base in Cuba and that's where the Taliban prisoners are being held. Conditions there are probably better than what they are used to in their own country. JusPeachy   |
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twhfan
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2002, 04:31:54 pm » |
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I have to agree with Lems on this one. I, too, saw pictures of the prisioners bound and blindfolded and didn't feel any sympathy toward them. In fact, I thought, " If the situation was reversed, the Americans wouldn't even be alive right now. They probably would have died some horrific death and the Taliban would be celebrating".
I'm not normally a vengeful person, but I'm truly not concerned for the prisoners' welfare at this point. To be extremely frank, it bothers me that we are spending so much money feeding and housing these Taliban prisoners when there are so many poor Americans who are hungry and homeless. I don't mean that the prisoners shouldn't be fed and housed, just that it bothers me that we are spending so much money on them. And the Talibans treatment of women!! Yet another reason I'm unable to muster any sympathy or concern for the prisoners. As for all the folks who are so concerned for the prioners well-being, where were they while women were being so abused by the Taliban? Just my own personal opinion.
I can certainly understand Andrea's concern about justice for all and not stooping to their level. Clearly she's a kinder person than I. And in response to the comment about why the prisioners are in Cuba, perhaps they are safer there than in our penal system. If they were in an American prison, it's likely that American prisoners would harm them. Just a thought...
There, I feel better getting that out of my system.
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spitfire78
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2002, 05:01:58 pm » |
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Like most of the posters here, this doesn't concern me too much. I do believe they should be considered prisoners of war and treated as such. I believe we should provide food, shelter, and any necessary medical attention and that is the end of our responsibility for their care. These are hard people accustomed to a harsh life, and my heart certainly doesn't bleed for them in the present circumstances. In my opinion, this is one of the things that has gotten the U.S. into its current situation - a bleeding heart. Before 9/11, people would not want to be too harsh with, for instance, someone in the country illegally. It's good to be known as the kind and benevolent one, but your first priority has to be protecting yourself.
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donnap99
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2002, 05:33:53 pm » |
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As far as I am concerned they are prisoners of war. The Red Cross is coming in to check up on their treatment. And if the Red Cross complains, I'm gonna have a cow. I'm sure that the square meals and medical treatment are a far cry from the standard of living from which they came. It bothers me just a little that my conscious allows me to have no sympathy - but only a little. Donna (Who just had a meeting this morning about our emergency preparedness) DonnaP99 |
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disallusioned
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2002, 05:35:04 pm » |
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I don't have any sympathy for them, and as for using Cuba, I can see a significant reason. Since they are being held under military laws and are to be tried by the military, approved by our government, then they should be held at a military facility. For safety and security, where would you put them? In the US where feelings could fire up and our own military be called upon to protect them by firing on US citizens? I don't think so! And what other country would agree to letting us put terrorists-and the possible threat that comes from housing these prisoners-inside their borders? So Cuba, being a US base, easily protected, one of the most secure posts farthest away from their home, seems to be the best option to them.
As for holding them without trial: it's not the first time that America has done this. Does it make it right? I really can't say. In this case I feel that it is right. Unless I've missed something: we are not stopping them from continuing to follow their religion with the exception of stopping them from killing or being killed, they are being fed as well if not better than they were at home, and are being given shelter that is equal or better than they had in the mountains. We're treating them well while they are waiting on the military tribunal to meet. That's definitely a better reason than the US had when we locked up all those of Asian ancestry after Pearl Harbor; taking all the students and families that were in the US, were US citizens, and had done nothing wrong and putting them in concentration camps within our borders. The US has a history of taking people that are viewed as a threat to national security and locking them up until it is proven they aren't a threat. And it is an item covered in the Constitution. Is it right? Hind-sight is 20/20. We'll know down the road whether the government's decision to hold these guys in Cuba without trial was the right thing to do or if there was a better way to handle it--all from the benefit of future knowledge. For now, I support their decision as the best one they could make with the information that I am aware that they have. I'll just continue to pray that the government be guided in its path and to pray for our military men and women who are protecting these very freedoms we're discussing here.
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superninjaadmin
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2002, 05:53:30 pm » |
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Inhumane treatment by being kept in "cages" in Cuba? For God's sake, these people have been living in CAVES for how many months and years?
The reason they are being held in this place is for security purposes only. The military is trying to get as much information out of these guys that they can, to backtrack their histories. Most of these people will probably be let go after the military gets all the puzzle pieces fitted together.
These alleged terrorists being held in Cuba are under a major microscope right now. The whole world is watching. I don't want to be so naive to think that the military would even dare to treat them inhumanely. Most likely the contrary.
Anyway, we can all form our own opinions on this, but I would hope to give the military the benefit of the doubt that they are smart enough to have a process and plan designed here that is in the best interest of the WORLD in general. I have to put my faith in them that they are doing what is best in the best way possible with everyone's best interest in the forefront.
SNA
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donnap99
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2002, 06:00:02 pm » |
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I wouldn't equate the prisoners being held in Cuba with the internment camps following Pearl Harbor at all! The differences? The internment camps: 1. Held US citizens 2. Held non-military people, including children, elderly, and handicapped 3. Removed asian-looking individuals simply based on their appeance - not based on their actions or even their associations DonnaP99 |
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countrigal
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2002, 06:04:37 pm » |
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I agree Donna. The only thing they do have in common is that the government is using the same rationale for the holdings. National Security.
CountriGal
Deskdemon Editorial Board Member
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